We’re in Singapore! aka CIVILIZATION!
Wow, no cows in the street, no blatant staring, no grunting for “customer service”, no piles of litter, no smell of urine. WHERE AM I, TOTO??? It’s amazing the things that seem WEIRD now. Walking around the developed world of Singapore, all I can think is how it feels like I’m emerging from a cave that I’ve been in for the past six months. I realized as we waited to cross the street (with a CROSSWALK and a SIGNAL??!) that I think somewhere along the line in India I started thinking that we’d not see civilization again until we got home, or at least New Zealand.
But here it is, and it’s the weirdest thing to think that it’s not just for a quick stopover and then back to the surreal world of India. I’m loving the clean, bright, sparkly world with different faces and much different ways of doing things.
Yet…even as I write that, I can’t help but feel a part of me thinking, “Wow, yep. Sure is clean and easy and nice.”
But do I kinda miss the cows, the chaos, the cacophony?…
(No Ratings Yet)
Loading ...
Whenever I hear someone from the economically developed world – built upon the exploitation and colonization of other countries – talk about “civilization”, I can’t help but feel pity for them. I hope some day you will realize that “civilization” has more to it than crosswalks and signals. Goodluck with your travels to other uncivilized parts of the world, esp with the attitude you have.
I’m not quite sure what to make of this comment. G was merely pointing out the fact that it was nice to return to a place that is more familiar aka ‘civilization’ referring to our exploited and colonized country. This point is not to be mistaken with the fact that we completely LOVED India. We had an absolute blast, and both agree that visiting India is not a should do but a MUST do.
Hi Priyank,
I am sad to receive your comment.
We arrived to Singapore after 6 months of traveling through India, Nepal and Sri Lanka – countries very different from where we’ve always lived or traveled in before and have totally loved (did you read anything else on there after all? Or just jump right to criticizing?). However, it’s been really nice to be somewhere again -for a whopping four days before we go back to “real” Asia, including some really great remote village places that we’re really looking forward to- where we haven’t had to be constantly vigilant about being scammed, conned, run over in the streets, step in cow shit, smell urine, hack on pollution, or be stared at.
We do realize that civilization has “more to it than crosswalks and signals”. I wish you’d read more of our stuff and maybe even get to know us before you jump to conclusions, judgments, and sarcastic well-wishings. Your “pity” is offensive, unfair, and a disappointment from someone who probably would have been nice to get to know.
Our attitude isn’t what you have apparently decided it is, and even if it were, ours is still open for change. Is yours?
Either way, thanks for stopping by and commenting.
One of the definitions of civilization is ” comforts and conveniences made possible by science and technology.” The fact that anyone would take offense to the use of the word civilizaton is mind blowing. I really think he took it out of context, and the fact that he reacted the way he did speaks volumes about his character. In no way did I find this post offensive or negative. I think this guy must have a chip on his shoulder, so don’t let it get you down. I knew exactly what you meant, and so would any other person who isn’t an ass :)
The guy is from India….so of course he is going to stick up for his country. Just like if someone said that Americans are ALL redneck morons you or I might have something to comment about it.
He was upset in calling India uncivilized. Although he could have gone about it a little differently, he has the right for his opinion. His website and blog are really cool….
Ray and G, keep it up! I like you writing, even if it would be better if there was some vulgar language….haha. I know you two aren’t criticizing India badly.
Wow, Priyank. Looks like you’ve traveled all over the world to only “civilized” places. Where are your photos and travel blogs about all of the “uncivilized” places you’ve visited that you defend and claim to appreciate?
If the chip on your shoulder is more philosophical (e.g., people not appreciating how indigenous civilizations are often slaughtered/abused as a means to creating an “urban” society), then this is not the best, nor appropriate, way to get your message out, buddy.
Here’s a suggestion: how about instead of insulting those who actually go WAY out of their comfort zone for the sole purpose of experiencing cultures completely different than their own, you take the silver spoon out of your mouth, get off of your high horse, and learn to walk the walk instead of just talk the talk.
I’m sure the people of the economically undeveloped world would see some of our culture as uncivilised and see a return to somthing approaching the normality of their own lifestyle as “a return to civilisation”. It’s a figure of speech used throughout the english speaking world and it is used to describe a return to normality no matter where you’ve been, I’ve been in some much more modern developed places than my own home and I’d still refer to my return as a return to civilisation. Ray and Ginelle are really nice people, they’re good travellers and are very respectful of other people and cultures.
Priyank stop pussy footin around with smart arse comments and sarcasm Ray and G are living the dream I have doubt they have seen more in the last six months than you have in your whole lifetime judgin by your shirt and tie…. Be quiet. Ray and G all the best with you journey and props for simply telling it how it is x
Scuse my French I meant no doubt !
There really is allot of things in this world lost in translation, things said as a figure of speech in one culture are misunderstood by another, customs of one culture offend others these are challenges we face as travelers every day and i believe Ray and G embraced cultural differences for 6 months in India and grew to love the country,in my short time with them helping me understand things that were alien to my knowledge and understand allot of Indian things that are simply lost in translation. Its a shame that the same thing ray and G did for 6 months (that is trying to understand a new culture) is not applied to their culture and figures of speech used in it,to express that they feel they are now simply in a place that males them feel more like home. A.K.A civilization
Hey all!
Wow thanks so much for everyone’s input on this, it’s really interesting to read. I invited my Facebook peeps to check out the topic and give some feedback as well, whether for or against Priyank’s initial response (friendship should enable honesty, not preclude it after all ;)), and hopefully the ones who responded on FB will share their thoughts on here too.
In the meantime I wanted to jump in right now and update things a little before any later readers start to hate on this guy thinking he’s just a random flamethrower (internet jerk) trying to stir trouble.
I’d emailed him my comment just before posting it and let him know I’d be posting it as a response on here and also invited him to email me back directly. I’m not a major internet/comment/forum user, but I’ve seen enough of these conversations get really ugly under the guise of forum-posting vs direct one-on-one contact and that’s not how I want this blog (or any human relationships that I’m engaged in whether near or from afar) to roll.
Well when we got back from being out all day today, he had emailed me back. I’ve asked him if he’d kindly post what he sent back to me on here, and I’m hoping he will. This has been a really interesting, if surprising, issue to me and I thank all of you for chiming in on it.
@John Thanks very much for your speedy response and for both seeing what I really meant and for defending it (me). I do think the context of my word choice was under-utilized given all the omg-this-is-awesome posts around it, and that he was too harsh too quickly and could have been nicer about it. However, at the same time turn the context table around for him, and his reaction makes more sense. Had he shared that part initially, the point would have been much better made and much better received. But communication, especially digitally is a tricky thing, so live and learn. Hopefully he’ll post the email he’d written to me to further elucidate his side.
@Chris Agreed on all points (though you really have to let the Fmy401k thing go, lol). I was really glad he left his real name and site so I could check it out and make the contact with him instead of just both of us sitting on either side being all pissed off (Hmm, turn this microcosm of cultural misunderstanding into two governments instead of two individuals and you can see the beginnings of so many perhaps needless – but deep-rooted – problems). Funny how two seconds of research gave things a much more understandable light and a good learning point for consideration, and that two emails could turn a battle into a (maybe?) friendship. I don’t think all things in life are that simple, but at the same time, I don’t think very many things in life are as overly complicated and tragic as we often inadvertently cause them to be.
@Erica I really appreciate your support of us (if indignant ;)), and concur with your second paragraph especially. If it’s any consolation, he did respond to my email, and did so nicely. So you can unruffle your feathers now. :)
@Cathal An amazing response that put where I was coming from into better words than I even could have had I been here to write them this afternoon. Thank you, it is much appreciated both as a vouch for our travel-approach and as a well-written clarifier. You were spot-on.
@Mark Hey great to hear from you and good to see you on here! At first I thought he was just some random jerk off the internet too, but (despite the shirt and tie :)) in all fairness, he did have reason to give pause on the issue.
@Amanda Like I said to Cathal, well said and very true. We appreciate your understanding and ability to sympathize with our (westernized?) perspective very much. Incidentally, with regards to things being lost in translation, one good thing about communication is that even though things can get messed up, they can also get fixed. That said, I just received the go-ahead from Priyank to share our communications since I emailed him my comment this morning, so even though it will make for a monstrous comment posting now, I’d like to share it with you all.
So maybe these small communiques between people won’t fix the entire world, but hey – we do what we can, right? I still like to believe people can be reasonable when treated kindly and that if applied frequently, it might make a difference overall. Anyway, you gotta start somewhere.
dear G,
I’ve been following your blog regularly since November when you wrote about the Pushkar camel fair. You have seen more of India than I have and I was delighted for not only experiencing different parts of the country through your blog but also for reading your perspective on the matters. You seemed to have fathomed the fact that it is a crazy affair to run a country with so many languages, religions and cultures. Therefore I was very shocked to read your latest post. Perhaps ‘civilization’ has different (historical) connotation for me, having studied the history and approach of European colonialists and their quest to destroy the ‘uncivilized’ parts of the world, the usage of this word was hurting.
I intended to post the comment anonymously, like most other commentators on this post did, expecting a backlash. It’s interesting to read what most people ended up saying about me.
I still am subscribed to your blog (hope you don’t mind) and I’m looking forward to the upcoming parts. Happy travels (and this time it carries genuine wishes). Who knows where our paths will cross! :)
cheers,
Priyank
Hey Priyank!
Great to hear back from you, thanks for taking the time to respond. Well it’s midnight and we just got back from checkin out Singapore again for the last day, and I gotta say your comment has definitely stuck with me. Ray and I were both pretty upset by it (we’re big wimps, I know, but we love this site and our trip so much and feel it deeply if we’ve upset or offended someone else since we are, ultimately, wanting to do better in the world by being on the trip at all), but at least it will give me something to think about and consider. One of the major challenges I’ve found with running a site is the immortality that every little thing I say or do will give me, for better or worse.
Since you found us back in Nov in Pushkar, you might have seen that we had changed from “Fmy401k” which was our original site because even that was maybe too “controversial” to build our identity on. In addition to having the actual experiences of the trip itself, it’s been an interesting parallel trip of self-creation and definition in developing and maintaining the website to try to document them for the public as we go. We’re still finding our “voice” and your comment, while I wish you would have written something earlier if you’ve been with us this long and actually enjoying the site and what we had to say (I presume, if you’re still following after all this time :)), will at least, like I said, give me something more to think about.
I think you’re absolutely right that “civilization” has much different connotations to us as Americans (colonizers after all) and you as an Indian (colonized), and I promise you I did not say it in a spirit of cultural superiority at all. I think Cathal, who we just traveled with for about a week through part of India after meeting in Bandhavgarh, said it better than even I could and completely how I meant it – just a return to what was normal for us. It is my hope that the rest of our posts surrounding this one would put this one in context. This one was posted in excitement and relief promptly after the very happy return to a world where internet is available wirelessly in our bedrooms which we hadn’t had since we started in August and a chance to reconnect with our friends and family more reliably, if only for a few days, and so I used it in jest. Still, I can still see how it would be a touchy word, especially coming from one of “us”, of colonizing, oft so-we-think or so-we-act culturally superior origin, and for that I apologize.
I hope you will continue commenting now that we’ve made a connection; I had no idea that we’ve even had any other followers yet other than our friends and, well…our mothers :P… but I’m so glad to hear you’ve been reading. I really, really appreciate that you opted not to be anonymous (brave indeed in this internet world of anonymous meanness!), especially because it gave us the chance to talk about it more…
I would love to meet up if we could…Keep in touch and thanks again for commenting (sniff ;)) and writing back today.
Best,
G
P.S. Would you be willing to post your email on the blog? I think it’d be good for people to see the full story on this. So many of these discussions can just turn ugly, and this has been a nice change. If you would be willing to, I’ll post my response from above as well. Thanks Priyank!
Hello G,
Thanks for the reply and I’ll start by apologising to you and Ray for
my choice of words. I could easily have written my comment in a
gentlemanly way. I had just finished watching the box-office superhit
movie Avatar – and was disturbed by the fact that even after few
centuries from now, humanity had not learnt the lessons of
colonization and slavery. It’s a collective failure of all of us. With
that frame in mind and (mis)interpreting what you said probably ticked
me off. So please accept my apologies.
As someone who has been blogging since 2005, I kinda understand the
sensitivities involved and the effect of every comment on the blogger.
You put it right; constructing an online personality is a long and
delicate process prone to misunderstandings due to the textual nature
of communication.
I can also relate to the ‘coming-home’ feeling you describe – I felt
it on multiple occasions having spent between 1 and 4 months on the
road in different countries. When I went back to Mumbai (I currently
live in Toronto) in 2008, I was overwhelmed by the number of things I
needed to consider for simple tasks such as crossing a street. It’s a
huge change.
I’ll certainly be following your posts and hopefully feel comfortable
commenting (although your blog-community probably hates me, for valid
reasons). Please feel free to post our communication if it helps to
put matters in perspective.
Thanks,
Priyank
It’s nice to see that these sorts of cultural misunderstandings can be discussed and worked out so openly. It definitely brings up a lot of interesting aspects regarding electronic communication and the sometimes unfortunate nature of anonymity. I look forward to reading future posts (and comments) as the journey continues.
Dave
I feel such wonderful hope for the future and so very proud of all of you ! Keep doing good
work WITH each other – our world leaders could learn so much from your examples of
caring diplomacy and just talking it over!! Gold medals all around to you. : ) WOW
I can’t wait to go back to India again. The country is like a drug, once you’ve been there you can’t get enough. I’m planning on going back later this year for a third time in four years and do a therapist training in Ayurveda.
In the middle of all chaos where everything is upside down, there are also places where you can really relax and be yourself.
the drama…the passion….the reconciliation! Why did I have a conference during this spike?! G…did you get my gmail reply to your email?
Scott
@Dave Aw thanks for the nice comment. I was really glad to have a nice chat and some food for thought come of this than just a typical internet-forum flame war. I hate those so much.
@Mom Thanks! I can definitely imagine it must be (and is) so much harder on a national and global scale. But I’m also glad to know firsthand peaceful resolutions (and even friendships) can come from initial differences in points of view on an individual level. Like I said, you gotta start somewhere. I think there’s a lot of terrible stuff out there, but I also still think there’s hope.
@Sofia Hi Sofia, thanks for your comment! I couldn’t agree with you more; about two weeks before we were to leave, I realized I couldn’t imagine not going back to India EVER. I was definitely ready to go, but it will never leave my mind and I know I’ll want to go back. I’d be interested in the statistical numbers of India-travelers who feel just as we do, whether they mean to/want to or not.
@Scott lol yeah Scotty you missed out on this one. Would have been interested to hear your take on it, for sure. Maybe next time you’ll have your priorities in better alignment. ;) And yeah, thx for the reply!
I’ve been away for awhile and was surprised to see the sheer number of posts on here all of a sudden! It looks like a lot of people are very eager to defend your courage in travelling around the world, which is rightly applauded. Too many Americans are afraid to leave their own state, let alone their country, let alone visit Asia, so we should keep in mind how extraordinary this endeavor is.
Yet those of us at home should not let our eagerness to defend G & Ray blind us from the fact that we are receiving the real, honest opinions of others around the world. (I mean, if we are applauding you two for travelling, isn’t it a bit rich of us to assume that we know everything about the world and that we’re right about comments and others are wrong, just by the fact that we know you?) It’s a fact that the West’s use of “civilization” to describe places that resemble our own is incredibly insulting to much of the rest of the world – especially places that had flourishing civilizations back when Europe was largely illiterate and sinking under the scourge of the plague. For the global citizen, using the phrase “back to civilization” is analogous to dropping the n-word Stateside- it reveals ignorance and backwardness and a kind of racism to all of those who are not from the western world, even if the one who utters it doesn’t mean it to sound that way.
It looks like G & Ray, you had to learn the hard way. I’m sure it stung, because you’re trying to accomplish the opposite – you are honestly trying to understand the world. At the same time, it’s hard to think of how you would have otherwise described the experience of returning to a sanitary urban life after the grime and the sweat you’d been existing in for all of those months. Probably anything you would have said would have been insulting, because the jist of the emotion was that you were thrilled to be in everything that Singapore represented, and I can see why you were! The more people you meet, the more you’ll run into this problem of communicating a message to your home audience while being sensitive to the raw nerves and perceptions of everyone around the globe and in cyberspace.
Good luck juggling these two objectives, and good luck on your travels!
Hey Melissa, great to hear from you!
I agree with your take in your second paragraph, and I also like the point that you make in the third. Even I hadn’t thought of that. Even though I feel bad and sheepish about my word choice (now) and appearing as you say, ignorant and disposed to a certain backwardness (which anyway, maybe I am – maybe we all are until we can try to change it at least to some degree, which we can only do so much so fast right!?), you’re absolutely right: I’m sure I would have offended no matter what I said to express my point.
I appreciate your wish for luck in balancing our own still-churning honest emotional perceptions with fair, wide-angle depictions of the countries we visit and people we meet; we’ll need it. If you have any for saintly perfection, we’ll probably need that too.
Or maybe we’ll just start stirring the pot intentionally once in awhile – at least we got to interact with our readers more. ;) Thanks for commenting!
Rock ON! Thanks for the update. So excited, as always for the next installment.
G, i read the exchange you had with him, but i’m still not buying it. He was pissed at avatar? The dude has a serious chip on his shoulder. And I know it seems I do too for so quickly jumping to call him a douche, but I admit it, actually i probably have a chunk taken out of my shoulder. Guess that makes me a douche too. So, from one douche on another, he’s a douche.
You know what it is? his use of the word “pity”. I always take high offense to that. That goes back to the discussion about religion we had. I don’t need anyone’s pity, I don’t think anyone does, least of all you and Ray. People who use that word typically sit on a horse so high they can’t see who they’re taking pity on. However, I am glad you were able to come to an amiable conclusion.
PS
” and was disturbed by the fact that even after few
centuries from now, humanity had not learnt the lessons of
colonization and slavery. It’s a collective failure of all of us.”
is the dude kidding? It’s a MOVIE. It could have been any way cameron wanted it to be and he talks as if it’s fact? Sounds like someone never learned the difference between fiction and reality. Now he’s insulting on a literary level!
sigh….
LEROY JENKINS!!!
James,
If someone made a movie showing how the ruler of some planet threw fifty million of his subjects in gas chambers, no matter how funky the graphics are or how exotic the location is, I doubt that the audience will be left dazzled with the show. That’s because certain themes evoke specific responses and packaging them in a nice wrapper won’t conceal what’s underneath.
There is always a superficial way of looking at things and if you are talking about 3D effects, ferns, and bugs alone, Avatar was no doubt breathtaking. But that’s besides the point.
Really? Because I remember Grand Moff Trakin blowing up billions of up people in Star Wars. And how about in Star Trek this year when 6 billion Vulcans get sucked into a black hole?
Regardless, you need to learn the difference between reality and fiction. Inspiration is one thing, and a grand thing I aspire to feel and instill. However, anger is not warranted over a fantasy. I mean, it’s not like you watched a movie about 50 million people getting gassed. If you do, maybe we can talk then about anger.
Sorry G&R for the airtime here!
For any discussions (excluding sermons) unrelated to this blog post, please send me an email (can be easily found on my blog). Thanks.
Civilisation has nothing to do with colonisation even though the original colonisers, the British in the case of India, thought that that was their justification. Having travelled in both countries I can assure you that Singapore is far more Civilised than India. Remember, though, that they were both colonised by the British. It is the case, however, that Singapore, since independence, has worked hard to create a civilised community.
The Collins English Dictionary has the following definition:
civilization, civilisation
1. a human society that has highly developed material and spiritual resources and a complex cultural, political, and legal organization; an advanced state in social development
2. the peoples or nations collectively who have achieved such a state
3. the total culture and way of life of a particular people, nation, region, or period classical civilization
4. the process of bringing or achieving civilization
5. intellectual, cultural, and moral refinement
6. cities or populated areas, as contrasted with sparsely inhabited areas, deserts, etc.
Whle Indians abroad, for example in Britain, are highly civilised and very refined, the country itself is in a state of chaos that is far from being civilised.
Don’t see this as derogatory in any but purely a matter of fact.
Jeez, if there was ever a signpost for the downfall of a conversation, it’s when dictionaries are whipped out.